2019 OPPF 1st round: Richmond Renegades vs. The Unified Team

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by VanIslander, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Round 1 matchup (in standardized format):


    Richmond Renegades

    coach Scotty Bowman

    Bobby Hull - Marcel Dionne - Cecil Dillon
    Brendan Shanahan - Evgeni Malkin - Mike Bossy
    Jiri Holik - Ted Kennedy (C) - Joe Mullen
    Bill Barber - Vladimir Petrov - Alf Smith

    Rod Langway (A) - Bobby Orr (A)
    Hod Stuart - Shea Weber
    Mike Ramsay - Dan Boyle

    Ken Dryden
    Grant Fuhr


    vs.


    The Unified Team

    coach Larry Robinson

    Frank Mahovlich - Phil Esposito - Sergei Makarov
    Pavel Bure - Sergei Fedorov - Alex Mogilny
    Kevin Stevens - Nels Stewart - Ed Litzenberger (A)
    Claude Lemieux - Ken Linseman - Theo Fleury

    Lars-Erik Sjoberg - Denis Potvin (C)
    Victor Hedman - King Clancy (A)
    Derian Hatcher - John Carlson

    Patrick Roy
    Henrik Lundqvist


    Any changes to the line-up or special teams: make them in the posts.
     
  2. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Renegades

    PP1: Hull - Dionne - Bossy - Orr - Malkin
    PP2: Shanahan - Kennedy - Dillon - Weber - Boyle

    PK1: Dillon - Kennedy - Langway - Orr - Dryden
    PK2: Holik - Petrov - Ramsay - Weber - Dryden

    vs.

    Unified

    PP1: Mahovlich - Esposito - Makarov - Potvin - Clancy
    PP2: Stevens - Stewart - Mogilny - Hedman - Carlson

    PK1: Fedorov - Linseman - Hatcher - Potvin - Roy
    PK2: Bure - Fleury - Sjoberg - Clancy - Roy
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  3. The Macho Man

    The Macho Man Lusty Bodychecker

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    I'll give more in depth thoughts later, but my first impression is his PK is in HUGE trouble against my PP.
     
  4. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    faceoffs should be one advantage for my team. to that end, i'll put a center on each PK unit. so fedorov with fleury, linseman with bure.

    and there are some really good playoff performers on the other team too but just to note some of the big game bona fides of my team—

    mahovlich: six stanley cups, former owner of the single-season playoff goals and points records. has led the playoffs in goals, assists, and points (1x each, but over two different seasons with two different dynasties). retired 7th all time in playoff goals and points.

    esposito: two stanley cups, leading scorer of the summit series. former owner of the single-season playoff goals and points records. has led the playoffs in goals (3x), assists (2x), and points (3x). retired 6th all time in playoff goals, 5th in points.

    makarov: two olympic golds, a canada cup, seven world championships. scored six goals in seven game upset of scotty bowman's powerhouse red wings in '94.

    bure: led the league in playoff goals, led the 1998 olympics in goals.

    fedorov: three stanley cups, led the playoffs in goals (1x), assists (2x), and points (1x), over three different seasons. 8th all time in playoff assists, 15th all time in playoff points.

    bure + fedorov + mogilny: 1989 WJC gold.

    kevin stevens: two stanley cups, led the playoffs in goals (2x second in points to mario).

    nels stewart: one stanley cup, retro conn smythe 1926.

    litzenberger: four stanley cups, one as captain.

    claude lemieux: four stanley cups, led the playoffs in goals (2x), led the playoffs in GWGs twice (with four), won 1995 conn smythe beating scotty bowman's red wings in the finals. 9th all time in playoff goals.

    theo fleury: one stanley cup, olympic gold, led the league in playoff points/game from 1993 to 1995 (over '93 gretzky, '93 mario, and '93-'94 gilmour by a good margin).

    sjoberg: captained three avco cup winners and a finalist in four years.

    potvin: four stanley cups as captain, led the playoffs in assists.

    hedman: #1 defenseman on a cup finalist.

    clancy: three stanley cups.

    hatcher: one stanley cup as captain.

    carlson: one stanley cup as #1 defenseman.

    roy: is patrick roy.

    lundqvist: olympic gold, stanley cup finalist. He holds the career record for most shutouts in best-on-best hockey, with four.[37]

    larry robinson: one stanley cup as coach, two stanley cups as assistant coach (including one over scotty bowman's red wings), one stanley cup as consultant, six stanley cups as player.​
     
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  5. The Macho Man

    The Macho Man Lusty Bodychecker

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    So I'll go matchup by matchup.

    Coaching: Advantage Richmond. Scotty Bowman is second to no one. At most, Toe Blake is the equivalent to him. Nine Cups with three different squads, plus another 4 runs to the Finals. On top of that - Larry Robinson probably is out of place in a 12 team format.

    Leadership: Push.

    First Line: Push. The best player is on Richmond, with the second and third best players on unified, and the fourth best player on Richmond. Neither side has a ton of D, but I would take Dillon over Mahlovich simply because he seems redundant on the line, while Dillon brings something different.

    Second Line: Richmond. My line is just a perfectly constructed line. Malkin is the distributor who can score, Bossy is the trigger man, and Shanahan is the corners and net front. Bure and Mogilny are... just the same. Fedorov gives you a bit of two-way play that mine doesn't have, but I think on balance the offensive firepower of my second line beats that significantly.

    Third Line: Richmond. Teeder is a clutch performer, and the wins bring some good scoring and solid D. I think this is a great match up line.

    Fourth Line: Push. Kind of similar philosophies, although you went for "maximum annoyance" and I went for big bodies who can provide some timely offense. The downside is with those three, odds are about 3 to 1 they take a penalty shortly after their skates hit the ice, which will be a problem for your squad.

    Defense

    First Pairing: Richmond. This is the best pairing in the league. Langway is the perfect partner for the perfect defenseman in this set up. I love Potvin, but Sjoberg is simply out of place here.

    Second Pairing: Unified. Clancy is a legit #1 on your second pairing, and Hedman is going to be appreciated more and more as his career goes. My pairing is fine and well constructed, but you just have Clancy there, which I don't have an answer to (although Hod Stuart is underrated for reasons I'll get into some other time).

    Third Pairing: Push, or maybe slightly Unified. We built the pairing with the same philosophy, with similar caliber players. I'll take Boyle slightly over Carlson (career value), but Hatcher probably has the edge over Ramsay. It's close.

    Goaltending: Richmond.

    Just Kidding.

    Special Teams: Richmond. My first wave PP puts the fear of God into any opposing team, and I just don't see you having the horses to stop them. Additionally, with Linesman, Lemieux, Hatcher, and Fleury - you are going to end up in the penalty box A LOT. Additionally, your PK is relying on Bure and Linesman (who is fine, but not an elite defender) to check these guys, and three of your most likely to be penalized players are among the 8 you want to trot out on the PK. This is where the match up gets out of hand in my mind.

    Your top PP is solid, but I have some heavy guys in Weber and Ramsay on the PK who I think can manage, if not completely neutralize, Espo.

    The Gamebreakers

    This goes to Richmond. In the playoffs, every now and then you just need someone who can take over a game. And I have Orr. And Hull. And Bossy. And Malkin. Those guys can take over a game and just become immune to gameplanning. Your biggest gamebreaker is Roy - which is a nice gamebreaker to have, but I think he's going to have to outright steal multiple games for the Unified Team to have a chance, and it's not like I have chopped liver in net.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  6. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    i don't really know how to do this so i'll go point by point to your points. but first, i do think you're being pretty reasonable here and my less traditional team is the underdog. but here's my argument for the upset—

    no argument here.

    i'd only add that it's closer than it looks because at least i have one of his disciples, so a guy who is familiar with his gameplan and who was on the bench when another bowman disciple, jacques lemaire, swept his presidents trophy winning, reigning MVP-having, norris winner-led team.

    smaller points would be robinson's resume is slight but for context he would probably have a really great coaching resume if he wanted to, but for lifestyle reasons he didn't want to. but when pressed into service, we did see what he could do.

    i also wonder how bowman would have liked and dealt with dionne as his first line center.

    agree, i don't think this moves the needle either way. roy would be the wildcard.

    is dionne really better than mahovlich? more than anything he feels like the weak link here. pitiful playoff record, and i don't really now the 76 or 81 canada cup tournaments at all but did dionne prove himself in those tournaments? i note that he did assist on sittler's 76 winner but afaik he was not considered a main guy on that team.

    i'll give you that i don't have a dirty work guy like dillon. and hull + dionne is admittedly a lot of firepower already. but as much as i respect bobby hull, chips are down i think you could on my threesome more to put points on the board. they just have the big game records.

    and chemistry-wise, i admittedly don't know much about dillon other than his ATD bio but one thing i liked about the three guys i chose to be my go-to scorers is they each are made better by great players, while also making other great players better (i guess those people who believe that espo was just along for the ride with orr would disagree...)

    hull and dionne both also played on famous lines, but i don't think they necessarily showed that same ability to integrate with other great players synergistically. i guess this threatens to become one of those "but what if dionne played on the habs" arguments, but without necessarily calling a minus on your guys i do think it's a plus on my guys' side.

    that is a great line. i appreciate the template too. and this is a line i would count on to score critical goals in playoff games. my only reservation is between dionne and malkin, your top two lines are fairly weak on faceoffs, especially compared to my guys.

    but yeah, my second line is definitely not going to score as much as yours. my strategy was to give all four lines very different looks, so it would be hard for the opposing team to gameplan. the first line is just offensive genius. third line is heavy and bruising, meant to cycle you to death off offensive zone draws. fourth line is a full court press.

    so my second line is your tarasov-style speed, puck possession, elite defensive center hanging back (and obviously you can't sleep on that goal scoring ability either, even though no one is going to win an art ross like malkin). i think that would be a very hard pair to defend, even with skaters like bobby orr and (i think?) hod stuart. and maybe this is just the fascism of tiny differences but i don't think mogilny and bure are really so the same. mogilny is more multidimensional as an all-round offensive genius than most people think and bure does bure things as well as almost anyone ever.

    teeder kennedy is great. i can't really peg holik's level but his skillset seems like a great fit. mullen benefits from those guys.

    the advantage my third line has is mitigated by your team's size (langway and weber). they'll still be a handful, but i don't think they'll wear your guys down quite the way they would a smaller team, even in a longer series.

    but still, that's a very big and nasty line built around a guy who was the all-time scoring leader for a good while.

    i've actually never heard of alf smith before but he sounds ideal for a fourth line. actually i don't know that i wouldn't want him next to teeder and holik to really have a crushing line, and move mullen down.

    the penalties are less of an issue in the playoffs than in the regular season. i think in any era, unless of course claude lemieux breaks petrov's face, you can count of refs to swallow their whistles.

    and it's worth pointing out that lemieux was fairly well-behaved in his devils runs, so i like robinson's handle on him. 20 PIMs in '95 (20 games), 28 PIMs in '00 (24 games) but 10 were an offsetting misconduct penalty that took the other team's goalie off the ice for equal time.

    your team is a pretty mild-mannered bunch, so i don't see them going crazy trying to beat my fourth line to a bloody pulp. but there is the adage of "he'll draw more penalties than he'll take" follows all three of these guys around for a reason.

    can't argue with that. orr is orr, and langway is a fantastic foil.

    for fit, i really like sjoberg with potvin, who has worked nicely with tomas jonsson in the latter years of the islanders dynasty. for value, yeah he's not a top 60 defenseman (apparently he was #113 on the aggregate list, for whatever that's worth).

    your team has bobby orr so that's obviously a huge plus skating-wise, and hod stuart seems to have been an excellent skater too. but in general, i think mobility in my top four is really really strong and defines my team's gameplan. carlson is very mobile too. for transition, i like this group against bowman's left wing lock (i see shanahan there on your second line).

    and to counter bobby orr, nobody can keep up with him, but at least my defense can skate with him (and hull).

    not the most critical matchup. i think the only plus on my side is hatcher isn't just there for defensive ability but identity/culture reasons. i wanted that defensive and blood and guts mentality to rub off on hedman and carlson, and also set a general tone for the team.

    re: penalties, see above. but insofar as fleury and linseman may be in the box (i don't think hatcher is really that penalized is he?), in my post on the roster thread i pointed out that i saw a three forward pair rotation, with makarov, mahovlich, and litzenberger (for faceoffs) in the mix.

    not to say that your powerplay isn't stunning, of course. i don't love your second unit, but do you even need it?

    i like my four PK d against anyone, but you obviously aren't making it easy for them. i think your only weakness, which is minor because he's still great and has shown he can play the point, is malkin. i'm throwing a lot of speed at him on the PK.

    and as for my PP, what i really like about it is if you managed to keep esposito from scoring, there's nels stewart right behind him on the second unit. not easy minutes.


    i have to disagree here. bobby orr is bobby orr, there is no one else like him. those other guys are obviously amazing scorers. but phil esposito can't take over a game at their level? makarov? potvin? king clancy?

    and to the extent that you have those bobby orr, those two other conn smythe winners up front, teeder kennedy, and two other guys who led the playoffs in goals, i do like the clutchness up and down my lineup more (as detailed above).

    marcel dionne is kind of an eyesore in your lineup. my dionne, mogilny, is far less prominent in my lineup. i don't love weber or dan boyle either. i may just be that we can pick apart recent guys much more easily than older guys but i watched ryan kesler brutalize shea weber with his speed. he never went at ryan suter, who was so good at containing him, but just always went weber's side and had the playoff series of his life. dan boyle also never impressed me in the playoffs and people have to remember that when he won the cup, he was TB's #3.
     
  7. The Macho Man

    The Macho Man Lusty Bodychecker

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    RE: Dionne - I view Dionne as pre-Bowman Yzerman. I think they have a lot in common. Bowman is going to hate Dionne. Dionne is going to hate Bowman. Dionne will be better for it.

    But with Hull - frankly he doesn't need a great C. He's got two guys who will let him have the puck. And if he has the puck, everything is fine.

    On gamebreakers - I wasn't meaning to imply you had *no gamebreakers*. Merely that I had the edge there.
     
  8. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    as early as the late 80s, yzerman was a pretty good defensive player and super intense/driven guy wasn't he?

    i feel like there was never a day in his life where you could say any of those things about dionne. that said, i would concede that even though bowman hated paul coffey, coffey did win a cup with him and then averaged more than a point/game for him in stint #2 while almost matching that in the playoffs. and imo, coffey deserved the hart in '95 so yeah it's not like bowman is going to go full keenan on superstar hall of fame offensive geniuses just because he hates them.

    but i still don't think you get full value do-whatever-he-wants-in-LA dionne here.
     
  9. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    okay closing argument for voters out there—i have patrick roy and intangibles up and down the roster. there's a lot of speed, a lot of big bodies, a lot of sandpaper, killer transition game (two guys who held the defenseman scoring record), high end scoring, and with the single exception of alex mogilny even my wingnuts and flakes have impressive playoff records.
     
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  10. The Macho Man

    The Macho Man Lusty Bodychecker

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    And I would say that - while you have high end scoring - on each line my high-end is higher. Bobby Hull is one of the best offensive players in history and carried his own line his whole career. Mike Bossy is the sniper's sniper. Ted Kennedy is a beast. And even Bill Barber has a 100 point season under his belt on my fourth line. And I'm not lacking in playoff records. For all of the criticism of Dionne's playoff record, I have 3 (4 if you count a retro-Smythe for Dillon) Smythes in my top two lines, plus another two residing with Orr. And Kennedy might be good for a retro-Smythe or two himself.

    And for all of your "two Dmen who held the scoring records", I've got two Art Ross trophies coming from the Blue Line. And four Art Ross trophies on my top line. And another two on my second line. And a Hart winner centering my third line for good measure.

    Yes, you have Roy. And Roy is tough to beat. But I have two top 5 players of all-time (according to the most recent HoH top 100).
     
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  11. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    oh yeah, your offensive high end is definitely higher. no one would deny that. i was just pointing out that it's not i don't also have some of the most gifted scorers of all time (my lineup actually has more goal scoring titles, not even factoring in makarov), so then we ask whether roy + intangibles can be the equalizers. and i really do think faceoffs would make a difference (do you know anything about petrov's faceoff ability? i have no idea).

    on the bottom six, my offence is actually better than yours. two harts and the all-time scoring record (+ retro conn smythe) centering my third line, an art ross runner-up/playoff leading goal scorer on his left (yes yes mario but still a higher absolute peak than mullen, imo), three time top five scorer to his right. and i think fleury > barber as an offensive threat/catalyst on the fourth line.

    three smythes on your top two lines? bossy, malkin, who am i missing? but yeah, no one would accuse your team of lacking playoff ability. i just don't think it was as high or as concentrated throughout the lineup as mine.

    ok your last word.
     
  12. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Potvin, Roy, Lemieux, all playoff beasts, with the Bure-Fedorov-Mogilny line re-united...

    vs.

    Kennedy, Orr, Dryden and arguably the best powerplay in this draft...

    When push comes to shove, dang, one MUST look beyond the above considerations.
     

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