ATD Chat Thread XVI

Discussion in 'All Time Draft' started by TheDevilMadeMe, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. BenchBrawl

    BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    While impressive, something feels wrong if Draisaitl can keep up with McDavid all year long. This never happend with Gretzky and Lemieux; they distanced themselves from their teammates.

    One exception was 1996 where Jagr stayed close to Lemieux...but that's Jagr, and Lemieux was already transitioning towards being a "chess player" by 1996. Arguably, Jagr was a better player than Lemieux in 1996.
     
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  2. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Ban assault helmets!
     
  3. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    I'm much more confident in McDavid keeping it up all season than Drais.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
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  4. Johnny Engine

    Johnny Engine Moderator

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    Here's something that might be a bit of a surprise:

    The 2010 Chicago Blackhawks are the last team to win the Stanley Cup with any of their foundational franchise players playing on their entry-level contracts. (no, I'm not counting Matt Murray, a baby Tyler Seguin, or Brad Marchand's 41-point breakout season. None of those teams were built around those players) I feel like when discussing teams like the Oilers, or the Leafs, or low-key the Panthers (strange story for the franchise that's dubiously a rebuild, but Huberdeau-Barkov-Ekblad is a hell of a drafted core), there's a sense that striking while the cap situation is easy is necessary, but it's pretty much a thing that doesn't happen anymore. So unless Vancouver or Buffalo* win the the cup this year (how much would VanIslander love that final?), it'll be a full decade since anybody has drafted a franchise game changer, and rode them to the cup while paying them 4th-liner change.

    *Ottawa and New Jersey both have their biggest dogs on rookie contracts too, but I'm not dignifying that possibility.
     
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  5. BenchBrawl

    BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    It's impossible to troll on the main board nowadays. What is the world coming to?

    A guy is having spaghettis at home, feels like going on a trolling spree to entertain himself instead of watching a movie, and the thread gets closed almost immediately. He hadn't even finished his spaghettis yet.
     
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  6. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Sometimes I miss the old ESPN hockey forums, where I had so many accounts (30ish), I had a sheet of paper with all my usernames. (TheDevilMadeMe was my one non-troll account on those forums).

    And then I grew up to be a long-term mod/short-term admin on hfboards.
     
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  7. BenchBrawl

    BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    Yeah, I didn't speak good enough english to participate in these forums at the time, but I had an equivalent situation on many french forums with multiple accounts.

    I would converse with my own self between two or three accounts and manipulate how the discussions were going. The last case of fake accounts I remember was VanI in ATD2011 and that's a long time ago.

    I didn't realize back then that the internet as I knew it would come to an end in the 2010s.
     
  8. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    I was VI. Then i was invited to mod the ATD board but advised to get a new account to mod under because of abuse i'd receive. I followed the advice and was indeed met by vitriol when doing my mod job. Then i used the mod account to co-GM for a newbie who wanted help in the ATD. Then in the all-time drafts the total number of entrants was a bit less than wanted so i drank the sign-up coolaid and created an account for it, suddenly finding myself with three accounts, unplanned but impulsively done in a quick minute (half pissed no doubt). I have never had 30 accounts anywhere but 3 was way more than i felt comfortable having. The house eventually crashed. I was stripped of mod duties and out of the drafts for over a calendar year. Nothing i had done was to win, but to help the drafting of great players deserving of respect. Then i returned as little ol' original me VI, the guy from Vancouver Island. That was a decade ago. Dang, time flies.
     
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  9. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    You never modded under any name other than VanIslander.

    You did get a second account in 2009 for MLD10 (Zamboni Mania) but did not use it to moderate. This account was used for nothing but posting picks, rarely if ever responding to other GMs, and submitting a handful of absurd all-star votes (maybe to keep up appearances of being a noob, maybe to avoid matching VI's comparitively reasonable opinions?)

    Not only did it not happen the way you said above, but I also find the claim rather dubious that anyone advised you to get a second account. Not only is it impractical - What noob account with no posts and no history would have anyone's respect? - but it's also no less against site rules for you than it'd be for anyone else.

    This is..... Technically true, I guess? We were going for 40 teams but we had PLENTY and by no means did we HAVE to get to 40. You created The Sabre because you wanted to.

    I think you were perfectly comfortable with it. You'd have gotten away with it in perpetuity too, but The Sabre just couldn't keep a low profile. They immediately demonstrated a level of knowledge similar to most experienced GMs, they argued, they said controversial things, they were..... Too familiar. Looking back, after something this supposed noob said betrayed them as something more than that, I replied with something to the tune of, "you are wise beyond your years", which may have made you nervous at the time, but it was still at least a month before I'd accidentally stumble upon the truth.

    I agree that there was never any indication that you had three accounts to increase your chances of winning, but there was one other major benefit that you took advantage of: the anonymity. You loved The Sabre being able to be a complete jackass to the draft administrator and heckle them at every possible opportunity. VanIslander and The Sabre were the same personality, except VanIslander pretended to respect me, but the noob with nothing to lose, made no attempt to hide their contempt.

    Let's not revise history.
     
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  10. ChiTownPhilly

    ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    I've been hanging onto this idea for a little while-- and now seems like as good a time as any to bring it out of the darkness...

    I wouldn't mind having a try at an ATD "D-league" where newcomers and the less-experienced (say, "Freshmen/Sophomores" [i.e.: one or two years of drafting experience]) could compete without the discouragement of getting swallowed whole by the sharks.

    Now these activities are games- and the desire to win is universal-- but the larger point is to have another way to learn about hockey's historical legacy. For that reason, if I were proposing ground rules for a D-league, I'd advise putting into place some strictures concerning players-per-franchise, and/or players per historical era. These seeming limitations would impel participants to explore unfamiliar territory and improve their knowledge-base.

    Another thing that seems to discourage newcomers, I've noticed, is the time-demand requirement for drafting. I think this could be mitigated somewhat by a generous draft-clock. Also (at least as concerns the less-experienced) I think that a 'D-league' draft clock should allow for extra time in the later rounds. Most of us have a pretty well-developed opinion on, say, Potvin v. Lidström (to cite one example where reasonable people may disagree) and we wouldn't have to reflect too long on our decision. Jiri Holik v. Bun Cook, by contrast, would take some of us some time to work out.
     
  11. Habsfan18

    Habsfan18 Collector/Historical Research

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    That’s really not a bad idea at all. An all-newbie ATD with say anywhere from 16-20 teams (might be difficult to find that many posters interested) of posters who are interested in learning more about hockey’s history but haven’t yet taken part in a draft. Could take it one step further and try to find posters that aren’t even HoH regulars. These would be more of the “casual” type fans of hockey history and its players/teams etc..but are regular HF posters.

    We could then have a “committee of vets” where a specific number of more experienced ATDers and HoHers are available through PM for these posters to ask for advice/feedback etc..

    This “committee” would then be the members that would actually vote on the regular season and playoffs.

    Not sure if this would actually work, but it’s worth looking into, IMO. This way we’re taking interested “casuals” who are willing and eager to learn more and helping them improve their knowledge. Best case we have quite a few “graduates” who become new regulars in the ATD’s and HoH.

    Something to think about. And of course this only works if we find the interested parties.
     
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  12. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    It's a nice idea. ATD veterans could serve as co-GMs or advisors to the newbies. And they could prepare a resource a little less frightening than the abysmal ocean that is the ATD bio pool. For example a raw overview grouping players by position and under several different categories (two-way player, physicality, playmaker, goal scorer, offensive all-around player, etc) to make it easier for the non-graduates to look for possible fits and research them further.
     
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  13. Johnny Engine

    Johnny Engine Moderator

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    I like that!
    One thing about the groupings that should be kept in mind - any time you're bumping a player up a league (Junior to pro, AHL to NHL, NHL to the Olympics), a players' less exceptional qualities tend to disappear. So your two-way power-on-power beast of a centre is now just winning faceoffs on the fourth line, your puck-on-a-string skill guy is now just using his shot on the second power play unit and hiding the rest of the time, your #1 defenseman is now handing the puck off and not taking risks, etc. The ATD wouldn't be any different were it real (in fact, I'd say that most ATD teams in any league size between 12 and 40 have some pretty direct quality comparables in best-on-best international hockey.)

    So we don't want any of our new GMs to think they can use Mike Peca as a "two-way forward", but it's bad history to suggest that he wasn't one. The gamification aspect of the ATD encourages some bad practices when it comes to actually doing good history research, and while that's no reason to stop treating the game as a game, I'd like to not be passing around a document that has deliberate misinformation on it.

    Perhaps each player can be listed with their real-life role (some have had many), and a few of their exceptional skills that they can actually specialize in at the ATD level.
     
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  14. BenchBrawl

    BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    I thought about doing this many times before, but it's not so easy because you have to be consistent whatever system you choose.

    The best way to do it would probably be to give post-expansion comparables for any pre-expansion player. Unless we just do it for pre-O6 players, which would be the most urgent. My goal is to give a quick caricature of the player.

    But even there, it's not easy. Let's try a few ones:

    Sprague Cleghorn.

    Who the heck is he? I'd say a better Chris Pronger or a lesser Larry Robinson but more nasty and undisciplined than both. Also not as good in the playoffs, but still good.

    King Clancy: Peak Anaheim Scott Niedermayer? Much better than Niedermayer in terms of value.

    Newsy Lalonde: Mark Messier lite and not as good in the playoffs.

    Frank Nighbor: Bobby Clarke without the nastiness. Cornerstone of a dynasty.

    Frank Boucher: Joe Sakic and Steve Yzerman but more biased towards playmaking.

    Howie Morenz: Sidney Crosby in value; more speedy, more bias towards goalscoring, not as good as in the playoffs, slightly better defensively and slightly more physical. Can't think of any stylistic comparable. Perhaps McDavid if he was more physical and better defensively? Basically it's just the speed.

    Bill Cook: Jarome Iginla on steroids (including the leadership). For value, a notch below Lafleur and Jagr.

    Eddie Shore: A legendary and better version of what Dion Phaneuf was supposed to become after his big early season + the rushing. Undisciplined in the playoffs. Best defenseman and arguably player in the world for a decade. I realize this is insulting to Shore and I should find a better one lol.

    Cy Denneny: Some sort of lesser Mike Bossy but bigger and with Policeman abilities. Denneny played more LW than RW though.

    Eddie Gerard: Serge Savard but even better as a leader and slightly better offensively. All-time great captain.

    Bryan Hextall Sr: Slightly lesser Jarome Iginla, less of a leader, bigger hitter.

    Harry Cameron: Lesser Paul Coffey. Hard to coach.

    Joe Malone: Slightly lesser Evgeni Malkin in value, but better defensively and more biased towards goalscoring? Perhaps Joe Sakic wouldn't be a bad stylistic comparable.

    Not sure how that looks to you.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  15. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Read the bios newbies.

    At least skim through guys in the ballpark of your next pick (link to last year's ATD will be provided as a general guide, beginning point to see roughly where guys go.

    Feel free to PM any veteran ATDer for advice on skillsets desired (passing winger fir your puck-hog center? Defensive skill and physicality for a blueline partner to your smaller offensive dman? etc)... or for some strengths or weaknesses of a guy you wish to target (we will certainly be able to provide a list of non-participating ex-ATDers to hit up for opinions and insights (eg sturm, 70slord, etc).
     
  16. ResilientBeast

    ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    Malkin could keep up with Crosby

    Maybe that's McDavid's path right now

    Edit: And he's coming off a fairly serious injury he's just starting to look like he did last year. I'd expect him to slowly pass Draisaitl over the next 10-15 games.

    Also were Jagr and Lemieux ever linemates for a full season? Because that alone makes this different already
     
  17. ResilientBeast

    ResilientBeast ATD Draft Czar

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    McDavid is the reincarnation of Cyclone Taylor

    Morenz feels more Crosby like than McDavid
     
  18. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    Good point.

    True.

    I'm just a little concerned we'd be pigeonholing players we haven't seen (or at least not a lot) and painting them with a bit too much colour if we describe them as quasi-caricatures of players we've actually seen.

    I'm not saying it couldn't be helpful, but the phrasing would have to be very careful IMO. Otherwise the comparisons could lead to misled conclusions on part of rookie GMs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  19. tinyzombies

    tinyzombies Registered User

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    Anyone have spare time to rank these dmen? I need them to be balanced in a lineup as well. This is for the MLD.

    Paul Reinhart - Doug Barkley
    Lars-Erik Sjöberg - James Patrick
    Craig Hartsburg - Ken Morrow
    Stefan Persson

    Reinhart, Hartsburg and Persson all have the PP stats. Barkley and Sjoberg I assume were also strong PP performers?
     
  20. BenchBrawl

    BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    Can you give me an example of what you had in mind to help inexperienced people navigate the sea of unknown players?
     
  21. Namba 17

    Namba 17 Registered User

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    Very interesting. Lets compare. I'll write where my opinion is different.

    I'd say, that Clarke was MUCH better offensively.

    From what I read about him - no... small Thornton, with better play-off and better defense? I dunno...

    That's whom I'd consider as an upgraded version of Yzerman and Sakic... Crosby is such a unique star... I can't find a comparison for him... Somebody like Antoine Griezmann in football, if you got the point...

    Gordie Howe lite?
     
  22. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    These comparisons obscure more than they enlighten.
     
  23. Namba 17

    Namba 17 Registered User

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    I'd try it for Soviets

    Vladimir Petrov. Stan Mikita.

    Vyacheslav Starshinov. Phil Esposito with Selke-level defense.

    Valeri Kharlamov. Pavel Bure before injuries, more defensively responsible and with better play-making.

    Anatoly Firsov. Valery Kharlamov with better defense... slightly better overall.

    Valery Vasiliev. Tim Horton.

    Vyacheslav Fetisov. Doug Harvey.

    Vladimir Krutov. Jarome Iginla.

    Helmut Balderis. Teemu Selanne.

    Igor Larionov. Better version of Joe Primeau (?)

    Sergei Makarov. Pavel Datsyuk + Sidney Crosby if they'd ever were played a wing with better goal-scoring.

    Alexander Yakushev. Frank Mahovlich.

    Alexei Kasatonov. Drew Doughty.
     
  24. tinyzombies

    tinyzombies Registered User

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    there’s video of Boucher- I was stunned by his skating, hands and vision. It’s like he didn’t belong in that era.
     
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  25. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    Dogs = wolves
    Horses = zebras
    Chipmunks = squirrels
    Alligators = crocodiles

    At a certain level it might make sense, but the more you learn about each, the more egregious the comparison.
     

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