Brodeur overrated

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Danny46, Feb 16, 2019.

  1. Spirit of McMullen

    Spirit of McMullen 3 since 82

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    26
    No, but that definitely is part of it. Hence the comment about the Trapezoid Rule.

    His many other attributes have been well-stated ad nauseum in this thread.

    Didn't think anyone would need to ask a question that his aforementioned exceptional puck handling skills would be the only reason that made him considered to be an all-time great.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  2. Spirit of McMullen

    Spirit of McMullen 3 since 82

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    26
    How so? He's always regularly rated behind those 2. The only people who would put him equal or above them are the seldom few who look at his career wins total and judge him to be the best because of that. And they seem to be in the minority IMHO.

    From what I have read by the experts, hockey analysts, fans, etc. are that Roy and Hasek were clearly better overall.

    But then again, I always believe a case can be made that Brodeur could be considered as good as Roy, as there is always a myth that Roy played behind much lesser teams in Montreal, including those who say the Canadiens had "no business" winning the Cup in 1993, especially when comparing that very serviceable & underrated '93 Canadiens defense to that of the Devils Cup winning defenses featuring Stevens & Niedermayer.

    But then again, 93' Canadiens defense was much better than the 2012 Devils defense, in which a 40-year old Marin Brodeur came within 60 minutes of forcing a Game 7 in the SCF with their best forward in Kovalchuk playing with an essentially broken back in those Finals for all intents and purposes.

    I still have a feeling that even if the Devils had won that Cup in 2012 with that AHL-quality defense, Brodeur detractors still would have made up excuses to lessen him and he would still be considered way behind Roy and a lot, but not all, of that has to do with the prestige & glamour of having played for a much storied and glamorous "O6" franchise that had a history of legends as opposed to a small-market team that is a subset of a larger market, that essentially had no real storied history or legendary players, both before and after Brodeur's entire career, consistent attendance issues and a reputation for being "boring".

    A fair question to ask would be if that Brodeur, Stevens & Niederamyer all played for the Toronto Maple Leafs for example and that team won 3 Cups in 9 years, would Brodeur be held in higher regard and standard than he is now or be looked at the same way? I definitely think the former and not the latter IMHO. It's a fair question.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  3. Dennis Bonvie

    Dennis Bonvie Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    15,508
    Likes Received:
    2,063
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Unknown
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Without his puck handling ability he's not an all-time great.
     
    brucejohnjennerlawso likes this.
  4. MXD

    MXD Original #4

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    40,238
    Likes Received:
    3,855
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Occupation:
    Dead
    Any way to see Brodeur as better than Patrick Roy is wrong. There aren't many absolutes in life and in hockey. This is one of them.

    And that's coming from the guy who was the highest on Martin Brodeur in the HOH Top-100 Players project.
     
  5. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    10,195
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    PA
    Home Page:
    Were you? I had him at 19.
     
  6. Spirit of McMullen

    Spirit of McMullen 3 since 82

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    26
    Would like to read why you say this, rather than just read your cliched answer.
    It's really not that much of an over-the-top or off-the-wall comparison to make.

    Rather than offer a cliched answer, it would better to add to the spirit of this thread to tell us why you think it's wrong to make the claim that Brodeur could be as better, as good or even not that far behind Patrick Roy.
     
  7. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    4,163
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    That's not true at all (obviously).

    I do rate Roy a bit higher than Brodeur, but pretending it's a slam-dunk is just wrong:

    1st/2nd team All Stars
    7 - Brodeur
    6 - Roy

    Vezina
    4 - Brodeur
    3 - Roy

    Top-5 Vezina
    13 - Brodeur
    10 - Roy

    Now, obviously I'm cherry-picking particular stats (quite important ones, though!) to favor Brodeur in this comparison, but just this alone should make clear that the two are highly comparable in a lot of areas. And it's not like either has a big advantage in longevity or overall career success, etc.
     
    deflowd likes this.
  8. MXD

    MXD Original #4

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Messages:
    40,238
    Likes Received:
    3,855
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Occupation:
    Dead
    Had him slightly higher (and I forgot some had him even higher)
     
  9. The Roy Of Ottawa

    The Roy Of Ottawa HOCKEY HALL OF FAME

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2017
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    175
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Gender:
    Male
    Martin Brodeur is the Wayne Gretzky of goaltenders.
     
    vikash1987 likes this.
  10. stringunspecified

    stringunspecified Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    2,811
    Likes Received:
    1,841
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Rick DiPietro tried to copy his style. DiPietro was one of the most athletically impressive goalies I've ever seen. The fact that he only barely approximated what Brodeur could do made it obvious to me how extraordinary an *athlete* (not just goalie) Brodeur was.
     
    Mike Farkas likes this.
  11. MadLuke

    MadLuke Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,931
    Likes Received:
    490
    Trophy Points:
    94
    I wonder if the script will not eventually reverse, playing under arguably the 2 best ever in Roy/Hasek then peak Luongo (shorter but really all time elite peak) followed by such a rotating table and inconsistency at that position right after it's retirement, if long contract to goaltender continue to rarely end well, the narrative that he got underrated by many could start, a bit like if McDavid do not equal-pass Jagr Art Ross track record.

    Since Brodeur, outside Lundqvist how many goaltender sustained interesting prolonged prime, injury free at the top ?, how many team failed because of not achieving average just above average goaltending in the playoff (oh incredibly valuable it is for a team to achieve just above average goaltending every playoff for decades and Brodeur was often elite in them), imagine the prime Senators with Brodeur for example or the Penguins between 2009 and Murray. And what was the value of playing that many game and not caring even a little for that position for 15 year's for a franchise.

    Brodeur was top 5 vezina 13 of 14 season's in a row.

    The 6 last Vezina winner, only one has three top 5 season in a row, many never had even 2 Top 5 vezina vote season in a row in their hole career.
     
    solidmotion likes this.
  12. MS

    MS 1%er

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    30,625
    Likes Received:
    18,845
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    To me he's the most overrated player in NHL history - a pretty good goalie propped up by what was consistently the best defensive system and least penalized team in the NHL.

    The year he got hurt - in between a Vezina season and a Jennings/Vezina finalist season - and was out-performed by Scott Clemmensen in his absence is kinda the Rosetta Stone for understanding how much the success of NJ goalies was the product of their system.

    His career totals and playoff success means he's justifiably in the HHOF, but I don't rate him anywhere near Hasek and Roy and consider him to be basically a more durable Fuhr.

    *braces for the usual outrage from Devils fans*
     
  13. K Fleur

    K Fleur Stop Trying To Be God

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    7,916
    Likes Received:
    10,645
    Trophy Points:
    126
    I don’t think there is much, if any, difference between Nicklas Lidstrom and Martin Brodeur. Both in the careers they had and the quality of players they were.

    Popular opinion seems to differ though.
     
    Frank Drebin and quoipourquoi like this.
  14. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    10,195
    Likes Received:
    3,198
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    PA
    Home Page:
    And anyone else that saw Brodeur play and knows goaltending...
     
    Frank Drebin, K Fleur and vikash1987 like this.
  15. MadLuke

    MadLuke Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    3,931
    Likes Received:
    490
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Was Clemmensen that worst after changing team:

    2008-09New Jersey DevilsNHL400.917
    2009-10Florida PanthersNHL230.912
    2010-11Florida PanthersNHL310.911
    2011-12Florida PanthersNHL300.913
    Maybe considering that 2008-2009 league average was .908 and after that is was .911-.913-.914.
     
  16. MS

    MS 1%er

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2002
    Messages:
    30,625
    Likes Received:
    18,845
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I watched Brodeur's entire career and saw him play hundreds of games.

    My impression was always that he was a 'good' goalie (and a durable and consistent one) whose success was largely a product of his system and the discipline of his team. I never saw the level of greatness or ability to carry a team that I saw from Hasek and Roy. I saw *a lot* of games where he allowed 1-2 goals on 20 shots and was never seriously tested.

    This was something I said for years, and when that same system made a journeyman backup like Scott Clemmensen look like an All-Star, that confirmed my belief. Feel free to feel differently.

    I'm not saying the guy sucked ass. In my opinion he was consistently a top-10 sort of goalie who peaked in a couple of his best years as a top-5 goalie. Which is very good. But I don't think he was on the same planet as Hasek and Roy and don't think he was anywhere near as good as some of his career numbers and his trophy cabinet would suggest.
     
  17. vikash1987

    vikash1987 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Strategy & Insights
    Location:
    New York
    Overrated by whom exactly? The media? I always felt that many of the "history buffs" on these history boards over the years rated him fairly and evenly (i.e. cracking the Top 5), and if anything underrated him.

    I myself have him as the greatest of all-time, but I'm biased (though I had the luxury of watching him night in and night out), so I can definitely be accused of overrating :)

    Also, this exact same topic seems to come up here once every few years, and has been debated ad nauseum. For example: Martin Brodeur....Overrated?
     
  18. vikash1987

    vikash1987 Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    196
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Strategy & Insights
    Location:
    New York
    Hard to imagine that there's actually a chance Ovechkin can touch Gretzky's goals record, but for the most part, Gretzky's records remain "unbreakable" (at least for the foreseeable future)

    Sawchuk's shutouts record was among the most "unbreakable" records until Brodeur got it. The separation between Brodeur and the #2 guy in many of these all-time lists is just astounding, and many of his records may stand the test of time.
     
  19. K Fleur

    K Fleur Stop Trying To Be God

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    7,916
    Likes Received:
    10,645
    Trophy Points:
    126
    A 40 game stretch of Scott Clemmenson's career is the smoking gun that Brodeur wasn't all that good...

    **** outta here.
     
    Frank Drebin and Mike Farkas like this.
  20. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2003
    Messages:
    27,945
    Likes Received:
    1,369
    Trophy Points:
    229
    Well I am no Devils fan..............but no, the guy was a legitimate gamer year in and year out. He won Vezina trophies on both sides of his Devils career. From 1993-2004 he won two of them, won three Cups and piled up a ton of wins and shutouts. After 2004 you've got no Stevens, no Niedermayer and still two more Vezinas and a surprising Cup final visit in 2012. Olympics in 2002 and 2010 (yeah he was benched in 2010). World Cup win in 2004. Where is the weakness in his game? I can't find one at all anywhere in his career. Has a ridiculous Hart trophy voting record too, pre and post 2004. Honestly, there is no difference here. But there was a difference in teams. Rafalski was there up until 2007. After his big record breaking year in 2007 (most wins in a season by a goalie) he won the Vezina again in 2008. His best defenseman is................Paul Martin maybe? In 2012 he is probably winning the Smythe if the Devils win the Cup but who is this all-star defense cast? No defenseman had more than 18 points on the 2012 Devils all year.

    Sorry, there are times you just have to give the guy his due. He wasn't a goalie who blocked shots either. He made legitimate saves, had routinely the smallest equipment in the NHL so you can't blame it on that either. He wasn't a Michelin Man out there like Garth Snow. I don't know what else to tell you, he is an all-time great. Wouldn't be any worse than a top 5 goalie of all-time.

    Also, he has virtually an untouchable record now. 691 wins. The best bet to even get close to him would be Fleury, but he's at 451 and is 35 years old. He isn't getting 240 wins to finish his career. With the trend now going back to more goalies splitting time in the regular season and your starter not getting 70 games a year generally anymore I don't see who ever takes this record in our lifetime.
     
    MadLuke and vikash1987 like this.
  21. Passchendaele

    Passchendaele Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    7,375
    Likes Received:
    729
    Trophy Points:
    139
    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec
    I must've missed Brodeur's MVP season.
     
  22. gotyournose

    gotyournose Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2019
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    18
    He is not on the Roy/Hasek tier

    But the one below

    If Canada had put cujo or Eddie the Eagle in net for the 2002 gold medal game, would you have felt more or less comfortable with Canada winning? I can't imagine anyone but Marty starting and winning the game. Sometimes, as hard it is to believe, you have to have faith in the goalie and the guy's desire and will to win
     
    Frank Drebin likes this.
  23. Ducks in a row

    Ducks in a row Go Ducks Quack Quack

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    16,212
    Likes Received:
    1,845
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    He is behind Hasek and Roy IMO. IMO he should probably be rated at #3 but no worse then being top 5 goalie of all time.
     
  24. FerrisRox

    FerrisRox "Wanna go, Prettyboy?"

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    14,931
    Likes Received:
    4,659
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    So, to be clear, you didn't bother to watch the video the OP provided, but you did bother to post telling him you are not left with much to discuss?

    If you want to discuss the topic, maybe watch the video the video he provided instead of demanding him to summarize it for you?
     
  25. FerrisRox

    FerrisRox "Wanna go, Prettyboy?"

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    14,931
    Likes Received:
    4,659
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    More like the Jari Kurri of Goaltenders. There's no discussion of Brodeur that doesn't include the team he played on and the role that played in his greatness, much like Jari Kurri.
     
    Bear of Bad News likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"