Is Carbonneau now the single worst player in the Hall of Fame?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Trafalgar McLaw, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    To be fair, he didn't really "shut down" Gretzky, who was the highest-scoring player on either team in the series. Gretzky was awesome in the '93 playoffs, but by and large he was a power-play superstar by that stage, and no longer anything near what he had been. The Kings were largely a one-player team by the time they reached the Finals, and I think even if Wayne had scored 3 or 4 more points, Montreal would have won the series anyway.
     
  2. Nick Hansen

    Nick Hansen Registered User

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    Ninth isn't a noteworthy placement in any trophy voting. 1985-1994 is still good enough I think, though.
     
  3. Burke the Legend

    Burke the Legend Registered User

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    I think an interesting question would be maybe how many points could Carbonneau have scored if he wasn't so focused on defence?

    An interesting comparison IMO is Sergei Federov when in his prime he went from 107 points to 63 after Scotty Bowman convinced him to aim to become a defensive specialist of the Gainey/Carbonneau style. Look Carbonneau's junior and minor league numbers, he was clearly capable of putting the puck in the net. It's almost too bad he came to the NHL immediately embracing the defensive role and didn't have a few years cutting loose offensively like Federov did.
     
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  4. solidmotion

    solidmotion Registered User

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    throwing in 2000—9 total selke votes for carbonneau—skews these results. i don't see how lehtinen's decade of selke dominance 97-07 isn't directly comparable to carbonneau's 85-94. it's eerily close.
     
  5. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    If Gretzky had 3 or 4 more points (in 4 games, since Carbo wasnt up against him in Game 1, and Gretzky already had 4 points in G1), then the Canadiens don't win (at least, not in 5 games), since three of those wins came in OT.

    Also, Gretzky led the playoffs in ES goals scored that season.
     
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  6. Mud the ACAS

    Mud the ACAS St. Louis Blues: 2019 Stanley Cup Champions

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    I tend to agree with this. Zubov was a Norris finalist once, he made an NHL All-Star team once [2nd team, 2006] and he won a pair of Cups. His play in Russia before coming over was nothing to write home about. He did lead the 1994 Rangers in scoring in the regular season at 12-77-89 in just his 2nd year in the NHL, but all-in I see a defenseman who had a nice career, was never the best at his position [and only twice voted in the top-5, once at the beginning of his career and once near the end], and you'd never say "if you're building a franchise, you'd take him to be a key piece of it."

    But, he's in. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.


    You mean, the period of time when he was age 32-40 and his general level of play would have been trending down anyway? Why, I'm shocked that he might be less productive in that period than he was in say his 20s!

    I dunno, maybe he was ... 34 and getting older and his level of play was naturally declining like you might expect from any hockey player.

    Nah, that's crazy talk - that makes way too much sense.
     
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  7. Albatros

    Albatros Registered User

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    Olympic gold, WJC gold, Soviet champion, Spengler Cup winner.
     
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  8. 86Habs

    86Habs Registered User

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    Wouldn't you though? Zubov was (arguably, I guess) Dallas's best defenceman for their back-to-back Cup finals runs in 1999 and 2000 and certainly a critical piece on a team that was very, very strong for a number of years. In 1994, he was obviously behind Leetch, but Leetch's 1994 playoff performance was one for the ages and as you mentioned Zubov did lead the Rangers in regular season scoring.
     
  9. 86Habs

    86Habs Registered User

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    After Gretzky dominated the Habs in game 1, Carbonneau went to Demers and asked his coach to match him up against Wayne.

    Game 2 - Gretzky is held pointless, -1, as Desjardins wins it in overtime and evens the series.
    Game 3 - Gretzky goes 1-1-2 (including the game-tying goal late in the 2nd), but Leclair wins it in overtime. Carbonneau had an assist.
    Game 4 - Gretzky has a PP assist, but Leclair again wins it in overtime.
    Game 5 - Gretzky is held pointless, Montreal wins the cup.

    So, in the four games that Carbonneau is directly tasked with, well, containing Gretzky (who was indeed having an awesome playoffs), he holds him to 1 goal and 2 assists in 4 Montreal wins. Particularly, Montreal losing game 2 on home ice and going to California down 2-0 would have been very difficult to climb back from. There is a reason why Carbonneau is remembered so fondly in Montreal and by Habs fans...the leadership he demonstrated by going to his coach and asking for an extremely difficult assignment, and his defensive execution in those four games, is legendary.
     
  10. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    i invite anyone who has the time to rewatch the deciding game 5 of the 93 finals. the whole thing is on youtube. i’ve only managed to watch the first five shifts but this is what i saw—

    - kirk muller took the first faceoff, suggesting that he not damphousse was the first line center that spring (we have discussed this question at times on this board). wingers were bellows and leclair. leclair had scored the previous two GWGs in OT. gretzky’s line is not on the ice (game in mtl so demers has last change)

    - second shift, gretzky’s first. carbo is out there. linemates look like brunet and ed ronan but not 100 on that

    - third shift, lebeau at center, damphousse at LW (again, starting to answer the muller/damphousse C/LW question). can’t make out the RW, assume it’s keane

    - fourth shift, dipietro at center with gilbert dionne. can’t make out the other winger

    - fifth shift, gretzky back on, carbo back on

    i’ll find the time to watch the whole game but for now, can you imagine the icetime carbo was logging at ES if he’s hard matched with gretzky?
     
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  11. Staniowski

    Staniowski Registered User

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    When Carbonneau was at his best he got lots of ice time at ES.

    Yes Muller was centre. Apparently Demers' plan was to play Muller against Gretzky. This is mostly what happened in Game 1. After the game, Carbonneau said it would be a better strategy for him to take on Gretzky, which would free up Muller's line to score. Demers ultimately agreed to go with Carbonneau's plan. Muller, LeClair, Damphousse, Desjardins all outscored Gretzky over the remaining 4 games of the series.
     
  12. 86Habs

    86Habs Registered User

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    Gary Leeman was the 4th line winger. Not a bad lineup when you look at in retrospect, but not one you would identify with a Stanley Cup champ. Much like their 1986 and 1989 teams, the 1993 team was more than the sum of its individual parts, of course with the GOAT performance by the GOAT goaltender.
     
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  13. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    It seems like middle ground is never an option on this forum...

    Again, no one needs to tell me how good Carbonneau was, okay? I think Carbonneau was awesome and I am his fan. I'm merely saying that, since Gretzky had 3 points in the 3 games after Carbonneau started playing against him, "shutting down" isn't really accurate. Maybe "slowed him down" is more correct.

    In retrospect, Carbonneau's key play may have been closing his hand on the puck with a second left in game three, and avoiding a penalty.

    (I wouldn't put too much emphasis on anything in game five. The series was over by then.)

    But on this forum, I evidently either think Carbonneau is a living legend of the sport, or I think he's a bum.
     
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  14. 86Habs

    86Habs Registered User

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    I don’t think anyone is saying that, honestly. You said Carbonneau “didn’t really shut down Gretzky”, which I guess is a technical point since it’s a fact he didn’t hold him pointless in the games he was matched up against him, but wouldn’t you agree that containing/limiting the best player in the game, in the middle of one of his best playoff runs (he had something like 33 points going into the finals) to 3 points in 4 games to be a noteworthy performance? I mean, this is Gretzky, I’m not sure anyone realistically expected Carbonneau to hold him completely off the scoresheet.
     
  15. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    The problem for the Kings was 2 fold in that series

    First , Kelly Hrudey had a very good final series, the only problem was that the Habs had Conn Smythe winner Patrick Roy in net

    Secondly as you point out Gretzky did have 3 more points in the series after the first game where he had 4.

    The thing is that only Robitaille (5) and Granato (4) had more than 2 points in the entire series.

    Too much is being made of Carbonneau and his single point in that series and his 6 points overall that year in the playoffs.

    The Habs as a team won the SC, not because of the legend of Carbonneau.

    Here is the series breakdown in case anyone is wondering.

    1993 NHL Stanley Cup Final: LAK vs. MTL | Hockey-Reference.com

    Again Carbs was an awesome defensive center but let's try to keep some perspective here.

    without Roy and a great Dallas team Carbs would have zero SC, does his resume really look anything like a HHOF resume (if we stop focusing on team accomplishments)?
     
  16. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    Reading another thread the thought came up as to which specialized skill would be more important.

    An elite defensive center like Carbs or a PP monster like Tim Kerr?
     
  17. Perfect_Drug

    Perfect_Drug Registered User

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    Craig MacTavish
    John Madden
    Bobby Holik

    All getting in next.
     
  18. Dennis Bonvie

    Dennis Bonvie Registered User

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    Did they play for Montreal?
     
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  19. wetcoast

    wetcoast Registered User

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    No but Madden does have a better playoff run than Carbs.

    That's the slippery slope here and I think most can agree that there are at least 10 players not in the HHOF post expansion that have better cases than Carbs does.
     
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  20. NORiculous

    NORiculous Registered User

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    Yes and he is probably not done yet!
     
  21. TheDevilMadeMe

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    If you want to throw out Carboneau's 9th place finish in 2000 for having a small number of votes (6.84% vote share), you also have to throw out Lehtinen's 10th place in 2004 (4.10% vote share).

    You're left with 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5 for Carbonneau; 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 6, 6 for Lehtinen. It's a close but clear advantage for Carbonneau. I would also argue that Carbonneau was more important to his team in the 1993 playoffs than Lehtinen ever was.

    That said, at least Lehtinen is reasonably close, unlike other examples in this thread.
     
  22. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Selke Top 10 finishes:

    MacTavish: 4, 9, 9
    Madden: 1, 2, 2, 2, 5, 10
    Holik: 5, 7, 9
     
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  23. smitty10

    smitty10 Registered User

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    Yes.

    The Hall of Fame is supposed to be for guys who broke records, dominated the league or were franchise/generational talents.

    Carbonneau's career high in points was 56. His career high in goals was 26.

    No 100 point seasons. No 50 goal seasons. No putting teams on his back and taking them into the playoffs. Just a good defensive forward who has no business being in the Hall.
     
  24. Dennis Bonvie

    Dennis Bonvie Registered User

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    Says who?
     
  25. ChiTownPhilly

    ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    Suppose it's (at the very minimum) spilt milk, but about that '92 Selke...

    Carbonneau was +2 on a team that finished 13 games over .500, with a +60 goal differential, in a Division that didn't contain even another single team with a plus number for net-goals.

    I'm catching the distinct odor of a "reputation-Selke" here.
     

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