Keith Tkachuk's Hall of Fame Case

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Cityswiper, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. Sentinel

    Sentinel Registered User

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    You asked if Tkachuk scored any memorable goals. The answer is "yes, the ones that many hockey players would give their right arm to score."

    "Sloppy Russian defense"? OK, does Bobby Orr's goal get disregarded because he scored it against the frigging 1970 Blues? Does Yzerman's goal get dismissed because it was against Jon Casey? This was the goal in the quarterfinals of the biggest tournament that year against Team Russia. And the nonsense about him not scoring in the next game... how many goals did Hull score? Leclair? Modano? Do you expect them to score in every game?

    Was Tkachuk a perfect player? No. Is he HOF worthy? Yes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  2. senior edler

    senior edler your alternate captain

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    I'm sure those goals are memorable if you're an American or a Russian, to other hockey fans not so much. Peter Forsberg and Mats Sundin scored a pair of beautiful goals against Finland in the 1996 World Cup round robin in Stockholm. Those are memorable goals if you're a Swede and perhaps if you're a Finn, for other hockey fans not so much.

    Bobby Orr's goals against the Blues wasn't that the Cup winning goal? Are you trying to compare a Cup winning goal by perhaps the most iconic hockey player ever to a few deflections and tap-ins by Tkachuk in a World Cup quarterfinal? The most eye-popping thing I took from that Tkachuk video was Yashin's terrible turn over.

    And Yzerman scoring on Jim Carey? I'm drawing a blank, I think you're talking about Jon Casey.

    Tkachuk to me seems like Tim Kerr calibre. If Tim Kerr isn't in the HHOF then why must Tkachuk be there?
     
  3. Voight

    Voight #winning

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    Ahh poor Jon Casey.

    The goalie in two of the most iconic goals in NHL history.... Lemieux splitting the D and scoring on him in the 91 finals and then Yzerman's infamous slap shot.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Jon Casey, not Jim Carey
     
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  5. Sentinel

    Sentinel Registered User

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    Sorry, fixed. Typed in a rush.
     
  6. Sentinel

    Sentinel Registered User

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    Yes, I am very much comparing that Orr's goal to the four that Tkachuk scored. You know damn well the Bruins would beat those Blues with or without Orr. USA is not beating Russia without Tkachuk. Give it up, dude. Tkachuk's goals in that game are nothing short of iconic. Can't blame him for not winning every game for his team.

    Yes, I meant Casey. Typed in a rush.
     
  7. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    Off-topic, but I never understood why the Yzerman OT goal in 1996 is considered "iconic" on this forum. Yzerman is a legend, and of course a game seven overtime goal is always memorable, but we're talking about a series that The Red Wings nearly choked away, in the midst of an under-performing playoff run, shortly before they were eliminated.

    To me, the 1997 (and 1998) big goals are much more significant.
     
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  8. ted2019

    ted2019 Registered User

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    Roenick nor Tkachuk are HOF worthy.
     
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  9. ted2019

    ted2019 Registered User

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    To me, if Tkachuk is a HOF then so is John LeClair ( and LeClair has a lot better case then Tkachuk).
     
  10. senior edler

    senior edler your alternate captain

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    Let's just agree to not agree on those goals being iconic. Tkachuk was still a very good goal scorer but so were Tim Kerr, Charlie Simmer, John LeClair, Peter Bondra, Alex Mogilny, Bernie Morris and a couple of other guys. Tkachuk being outside of the HHOF is not a big deal as many very good players are outside of the HHOF and probably should be. I guess it all depends on ones own criteria for the HHOF and how much one cares about the HHOF as a concept.

    Tkachuk was just not a guy you built a very good team around. Even on those goals you posted Modano had 4 assists, so Tkachuk wasn't even the most distinguished player on that line or the motor driving the play. Winnipeg/Phoenix did a mistake when they put their eggs in the Tkachuk basket instead of in the Selänne basket.
     
  11. Stanislasjc

    Stanislasjc Registered User

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    Sorry this took so long to reply to, I did appreciate it. You're 100% right.

    I think I made a mistake in my post by comparing Tkachuk and Kariya only in narrative appeal. I was kind of using Kariya as an example of what a borderline HoF player who SHOULD get in looks like, without giving him his proper due. Because I do agree with everything you wrote, I just didn't make that clear in my post.

    I am genuinely happy Kariya is in the HoF, I think he is deserving, and I also am VERY aware of his pre-injury peak, since it was Kariya who got me into hockey as a kid. You're quite right, there was this tiny window between Mario retiring and the Gary Suter check where he was considered the best player in the league (or at least right in the conversation with everyone else). He also had a quietly productive career post-Anaheim that many don't appreciate.

    I can see a path for him where he doesn't get injured in 1998, he has a great tournament at Nagano, Canada wins Gold, and generally establishes himself as the best position player in the world. I'm not saying that definitely happens, but that was all within his reach.

    And then after that, the trajectory of his next 5-10 years improves, and he finishes as a no doubt about it HoFer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  12. The Roy Of Ottawa

    The Roy Of Ottawa HOCKEY HALL OF FAME

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    1991 and 1996 All-Star. Pat Verbeek won the Stanley Cup with the Dallas Stars in 1999.
     
  13. The Roy Of Ottawa

    The Roy Of Ottawa HOCKEY HALL OF FAME

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    Keith Tkachuk: 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2004, 2007 NHL All-Star. 2012 U.S. Hockey Hall of Fame Inductee.
     
  14. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

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    It's not just importance. Yzerman's goal against St. Louis has sufficiently high stakes, but it's also probably the most perfectly photographed goal ever.
     
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  15. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    True, but 1 Stanley Cup & two all-star game appearances (which are nearly meaningless) gives you Bobby Smith, Steve Larmer, Brian Bellows and Ray Whitney (all in the 1,000 to 1,100 point range). All great players, but like Verbeek, none really should be in the Hall.

    (EDIT - Verbeek deserves credit for being a depth player on the 1999 Stars, but he was the #9 forward on the team measured by total ice time. He was probably somewhere in the #12-14 range overall in terms of importance to his team. That's a positive, but if this is one of the main selling points him his Hall candidacy, that says a lot).
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  16. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

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    I mean, what were the stakes, really? If Detroit had been eliminated on an overtime goal by, say, Shayne Corson that night, as opposed to being eliminated in six by Colorado two weeks later, would it really matter in light of what happened the next two years?
     
  17. JackSlater

    JackSlater Registered User

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    It's a game 7, double overtime goal. Those are very high stakes. It's obviously more well known and "iconic" due to how well the goal was captured however, just like Orr's goal is more famous for the picture of Orr after the goal than it is for the stakes.
     
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  18. The Roy Of Ottawa

    The Roy Of Ottawa HOCKEY HALL OF FAME

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    Didn't something similar happen with Chris Pronger?
     
  19. DudeWhereIsMakar

    DudeWhereIsMakar Bergevin sent me an offer sheet

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    Well it's known for him to likely never play an NHL game again.
     
  20. The Roy Of Ottawa

    The Roy Of Ottawa HOCKEY HALL OF FAME

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    I mean he was inducted without having officially announced that he had retired three years earlier.
     
  21. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

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    He played in the All-star game, but was never a post-season All-star, which is the only thing that matters for a HHOF case.
     
  22. The Roy Of Ottawa

    The Roy Of Ottawa HOCKEY HALL OF FAME

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  23. gotyournose

    gotyournose Registered User

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    If he's in, than LeClair and mogilny are in. Tkachuk choked in the playoffs.
     
  24. MXD

    MXD Original #4

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    There is A LOT of players ahead of Tkachuk in the queue.
     
  25. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    I had to look it up to remember. Okay, I guess it was meaningful if you are a Russian because you would certainly remember that. But the Americans lost in the semis right after that. It was a heck of a game for him for sure, but he just didn't do this sort of thing in the NHL, ever. Not when it mattered. Which is strange, because Tkachuk was built for the playoffs and was the type of guy you figure could be like a Cam Neely in the postseason as it was tailored to his game. Look, I'm Canadian and sometimes I forget what a wonderful game the Canada/Sweden match was in the 1996 World Cup because we lost in the final. Great game, but how many remember it was Fleury who scored the winner after Coffey's dash down the ice? I'll bet a lot of serious hockey fans don't have the visual image of that goal in their minds.

    All three were not great in the playoffs. With Tkachuk, the only time he got out of the 2nd round he had 9 points in 15 games. I am not saying they beat Colorado anyway, but there are certain players that were able to still look good in playoff losses because they did their part. Did he?

    It is possible Mogilny is worse though because I think he had just as much if not more of an ability to take over a series with his talent alone, and he didn't. His playoff stats aren't great, but if you look closer you see he played worse the deeper he got.

    I guess if you had to pick out of the three it is Leclair. In the playoffs he wasn't great, but at least in his prime he was "alright" and some of his numbers are based off of long runs early in his career or at the end of it when he was less effective.

    I don't put either in the HHOF, but if I pick one it is Leclair because he at least strung together numerous seasons of elite hockey even though his overall stats and career aren't overwhelming overall.

    I think the Yzerman goal is a bit like Carlton Fisk's home run in Game 6 of the 1975 World Series. Neither team won the championship that year but those moments are aesthetically beautiful from a sports standpoint. Yzerman teeing it up, that perfect angle for the camera, you can see his eyes and then he goes down and hammers the shot that you can see coming the whole way. I mean, if I didn't know this was random I would swear the camera man was purposely there for a movie scene in a Hollywood movie. The camera work was that good. Fisk of course had the frantic "go fair, go fair" motion as he was going down the first base line. That is iconic. If you picked 10 goals in NHL history and 10 home runs in baseball history both of them are on the list from a familiarity standpoint. Fisk's was in the World Series still though, and even though the Red Sox lost a narrow Game 7 to the Reds the next night it is still memorable. But there are more IMPORTANT home runs within the context of winning than that one. Same with Yzerman's goal. If the Wings win in 1996 that goal skyrockets more than it has already. You had a 131 point team heavily favoured to win a Cup extend their lives to the next round. I think the biggest knock on the Yzerman goal is that they didn't even make the final, unlike Fisk's Red Sox. The fact that it was Yzerman, already a legendary name, makes it even more famous.
     

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