Malkin vs. Sakic/Yzerman

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by daver, Nov 30, 2019.

  1. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2004
    Messages:
    29,973
    Likes Received:
    3,614
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Malkin vs. Dionne...

    Is more apples vs. apples.
     
    gary69 likes this.
  2. Habs10025

    Habs10025 Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,785
    Likes Received:
    317
    Trophy Points:
    69
    1st- Yzerman

    Between Sakic and Malkin it's six of one half a dozen of the other.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  3. Retire91

    Retire91 hot and REaDy Wings Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    4,317
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    MI
    But in that same regard Yzerman had better peak offensive seasons than Malkin in comparison to his piers. Yzerman would have won some Art Ross trophies if he wasn't competing against Lemuix and Gretzky. Sakic had his best offensive season during peak clutch and grab. Malkin won an Art Ross but was he competing against the top 1 and 2 offensive players of all time?

    To your point Yzerman was not always a two way player, but when he wasn't he was still a bigger offensive player than Malkin. Are you saying that becoming a 2 way player would have no impact on his offense? Because I disagree with that.

    I am not saying Malkin is bad on defense, he isn't and his defense is also partly his offense because when he is on you don't need defense. But would you ever compare Malkin's defense to say Patrice Bergeron? Because that was the level of defense Yzerman brought when he committed. Half a career of dedicated back checking is going to show in your numbers.
     
  4. authentic

    authentic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    15,405
    Likes Received:
    2,522
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Yup. It's amazing how many consider the other two better players. Better careers sure, but when the chips are down I'll take a healthy prime Malkin everyday in the regular season and playoffs, and that's saying a lot compared to these two.
     
  5. Solzhenitsyn

    Solzhenitsyn Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2018
    Messages:
    10,720
    Likes Received:
    11,081
    Trophy Points:
    131
    I’ll take Malkin if healthy. The only reason this is a question is the fact that Geno has missed 15-20 games every year since 2012 besides 2018. He’s the best playoff performer of his generation outside of Crosby.
     
    authentic likes this.
  6. authentic

    authentic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    15,405
    Likes Received:
    2,522
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Makin has a better peak in the playoffs and regular season. His 2009 playoffs was better than any from Yzerman and his 2011-12 season was more dominant compared to his peers, unless you want to exclude Gretzky, Lemieux AND Nicholls, and even then it's still pretty comparable.
     
  7. authentic

    authentic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    15,405
    Likes Received:
    2,522
    Trophy Points:
    141
    I think Sakic is pretty close, but both are a little ahead of Yzerman for me.
     
  8. K Fleur

    K Fleur Stop Trying To Be God

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    7,925
    Likes Received:
    10,651
    Trophy Points:
    126
    Until the playoffs start maybe.
     
    NyQuil and VanIslander like this.
  9. GMR

    GMR Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,834
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Air Raid Warden
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    His playoff peak is higher. However, Malkin's best offensive seasons don't compare to Yzerman's, when you consider what kind of roster Detroit had at the time.
     
  10. GMR

    GMR Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,834
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Air Raid Warden
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    When the chips are down, I take two great players who are also terrific leaders over a pure offensive player like Malkin.
     
    Jim MacDonald likes this.
  11. authentic

    authentic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    15,405
    Likes Received:
    2,522
    Trophy Points:
    141
    That's fair, but Malkin was nowhere close to a defensive liability. When he's engaged he's a puck hound all over the ice and owns the puck as soon as he takes it. Also isn't afraid to shake things up physically.
     
  12. authentic

    authentic Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2015
    Messages:
    15,405
    Likes Received:
    2,522
    Trophy Points:
    141
    Look at who Malkin played with in 2011-12. Crosby played 22 games and James Neal has been a 40-50 point player at best outside of his 3 seasons in Pittsburgh playing with Malkin and Crosby.
     
  13. daver

    daver Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    19,321
    Likes Received:
    1,918
    Trophy Points:
    231
    Home Page:
    One season can be argued but that is partially because Malkin missed a few games in 11/12. PPG dominance was similar. Their other best seasons are comparable, Malkin may have the better higher end seasons.

    Not sure why Sakic playing during the "peak clutch and grab" bears any relevance, Malkin's best season was during an even lower scoring year for the top end offensive players.
     
  14. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2004
    Messages:
    29,973
    Likes Received:
    3,614
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Top-10s in scoring seasons...

    Malkin
    Goals 2nd, 4th, 4th
    Assists 1st, 3rd, 6th

    Dionne
    Goals 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th
    Assists 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 9th, 9th, 9th

    Note: Both of Dionne's 2nds were behind Bossy. And no one has scored more points over the 1975-1985 span than Dionne. He played with no other HHOF forward on the team.

    It is hard to see Malkin surpassing Dionne, a whole tier below Sakic, Yzerman. So the premise of this thread is unfair. Malkin is K.O'd.
     
    wetcoast likes this.
  15. Pittsburgh1776

    Pittsburgh1776 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    371
    Trophy Points:
    74
    Reading your posts, it’s doubtful you’ve watched much of Malkin. Malkin was superb defensively when he came over in 2006, and was used in that role defensively and on the penalty kill by the Russian national teams and by Penguins coaches early in his career. He has superior anticipation and awareness of the next play, and the physical strength to take the puck or run a guy over. He was outstanding defensively in the 2009 Cup run, as he has been in the playoffs in general and throughout all our Cup runs. But in the regular season he has not been used in these roles unless Crosby is injured. Watch him play this season, and you’ll see what I mean.

    Yzerman and Sakic have longevity, but when all is said and done I take 71 over both.

    Oh, and Malkin is also a top leader on the Pens...he has led through example and risen to the occasion at key times countless times for us.
     
  16. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    8,761
    Likes Received:
    2,384
    Trophy Points:
    171
    Location:
    Hockeytown, MI
    Not a terrible amount of PK time per game at 28 seconds, 49 seconds, 1:05 at his max, then back down to 15 seconds, then 4 seconds, then 2 seconds.

    Reads more like someone who was tested in the role and decided against.
     
    wetcoast likes this.
  17. Pittsburgh1776

    Pittsburgh1776 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    371
    Trophy Points:
    74
    There’s no reason to use an all-time offensive great in a significant PK role. The point is that he can, and was very good at it.
     
  18. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2004
    Messages:
    29,973
    Likes Received:
    3,614
    Trophy Points:
    232
    Please. Let us not conflate the penalty kill with backchecking and forechecking.

    I am wholly unimpressed with Malkin's checking for the near 50% of the regular 5-on-5 shifts in which his team does not have the puck, though he forechecks more than backchecks (but Dino Ciccarelli forechecked liked crazy but is crucified around here for not backchecking often).

    Malkin rarely has shown the sort of puckhound hunger that Forsberg exemplified at both ends of the ice.
     
    wetcoast and seventieslord like this.
  19. Pittsburgh1776

    Pittsburgh1776 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    371
    Trophy Points:
    74
    We’re just going to have to disagree here. Malkin is a big man, who is best when carrying the puck at speed through the middle. He is plenty tenacious on the puck (this is one of his calling cards...), and is probably Pittsburgh’s best player in board battles, and that includes Crosby. That’s coming from Rick Tocchet too, who has seen a thing or two. At his best, he is one of the best in the league at takeaways and is a beast defensively in the biggest games. Is he always as complete a player as Yzerman and Sakic? No. But good enough, and his offensive ability more than makes up for the difference.
     
  20. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2004
    Messages:
    29,973
    Likes Received:
    3,614
    Trophy Points:
    232
    No. No. And... no.
     
  21. Retire91

    Retire91 hot and REaDy Wings Sponsor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2010
    Messages:
    4,317
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    MI
    That's fair I honestly don't have the personal time and drive to really go into the deep dive season by season for comparison and further debate. But on the surface and in my opinion peak Yzerman was more dominant than peak Malkin. But if fact debunks my opinion that is all good too. Malkin is fascinating as a player and I was always excited since the day we found out he was coming over. I feel like Malkin will leave an incredible legacy on the game, but not on the same level as someone like Sakic/Yzerman. If Malkin leaves the game with like Jagr numbers then its a different story.
     
  22. Pittsburgh1776

    Pittsburgh1776 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    407
    Likes Received:
    371
    Trophy Points:
    74
    Glad that’s settled. Call back when Malkin hits 13-1500 games played, many of them in a higher scoring league.
     
  23. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    33,091
    Likes Received:
    2,038
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Regina, SK
    No, you call back when that happens. It's a big "if" given his age and history.

    He still has the chance to put together a Sakic or Yzerman level career, but it's unlikely.

    There's a chance you'll be proven right but you sure as hell haven't been yet, and you certainly wouldn't be acting like you already have been, or that 1300-1500 games is a certainty.
     
  24. GMR

    GMR Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,834
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Air Raid Warden
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    The problem with Dionne is the limited playoff resume. He only played in 49 playoff games. I understand it's a team sport, but it's hard to compare him with similarly tiered centers on such a resume. I'm not sure that I'd rank him above Malkin. Probably not on first thought.
     
  25. GMR

    GMR Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,834
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Air Raid Warden
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    I've watched enough. I'm not saying he's a terrible defensive forward. I'm saying it's not one of his strengths as a player. He likely doesn't kill penalties because he cannot win a faceoff to save his life. Although, he's better this season so far in faceoffs. We'll see where the numbers are at the end of the year.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"