GWT: PL Matchweek 12

Discussion in 'Soccer' started by Savant, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. les Habs

    les Habs Registered User

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    Yeah, saying City have had injuries isn't at all blaming Liverpool. It's simply context.
     
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  2. Halladay

    Halladay Folesian Society

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    Is Sane even at City if he doesn't get hurt though?

    Anyway, gigantic win. City have already dropped 11 points in 12 matches and with LaPorte out for a bit more and their upcoming schedule they will probably drop some more. Have to feel pretty good right now.
     
  3. kyle evs48

    kyle evs48 Devilish Boy Grin

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    If we say 32 wins gets the title, City can only drop points two more times to have a chance, and four more times if we call it 30. Neither looks good.
     
  4. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    Yeah Laporte is a big miss but I think Sane is not a player to count for City at this point given it's doubtful he'll play for them again in any event. Something that's very noticeable about this Liverpool team that separates them from teams of the past is their ability to play stylistically to fit the situation; they can absorb pressure, they can play with possession and they can set up on the counter. The belief, confidence and calm that they play with even under pressure and being attacked at times as City did is incredible to watch. "Mentality giants". They look like champions.

    Again, still early, but this is probably the most hopeful I've ever been of a title.
     
  5. SJSharks39

    SJSharks39 Registered User

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    They aren’t allowed to. VAR rules don’t let them unless City scored off that play. So since the Liverpool handball happened and City didn’t score, Bernardo’s handball should have NO effect on giving the penalty.

    Also here is a disclaimer down here, this is based on my understanding of the rules and also the MLS rules of VAR (which I’m pretty sure are the same as PL)
     
  6. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    The penalty would be a result of the offensive play which means it would all have to be looked at, which was already said by multiple refs/former refs if they found Trent's handball to be a penalty worthy offence. They didn't look at it because it was judged not to be, or it would have been called back as a Liverpool free kick.
     
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  7. Halladay

    Halladay Folesian Society

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    I think the 32 wins is too many but I definitely see them getting at least 90 points. So that means they can only drop points 5 times. Granted injuries can happen, but it is looking good. With their defensive frailties nothing has suggested yet they can rattle off 10 wins in a row right now.
     
  8. hatterson

    hatterson Registered User

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    It can be looked at under the old/non-goal handball standard.

    The new handball rule specific to goals doesn't mention penalties, so it's not automatic. They would have to rule it a deliberate handball (deliberate either by movement or position) which it clearly isn't given the position of his arm in relation to how he was moving and how close the ball was when it was struck at him. The Silva handball was very similar to the TAA handball later in the game in that neither were unnatural positions and both were the result of a ball being kicked into the arm from incredibly close range.

    If Oliver would have given the pen, or if VAR would have deemed it a clear and obvious mistake to have no given it, VAR as currently implemented wouldn't have grounds to overturn it based on the Silva situation.
     
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  9. Chimaera

    Chimaera same ol' Caps

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    It's certainly more than a little bit confusing with VAR (understatement of the year I know).
     
  10. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    That's not what the refs said though. They said that if there was a handball in the box they look at the entire play leading up to the penalty, which would have resulted in the Silva handball (likewise, if an attacker were to foul a defender before being fouled himself but the ref only saw the penalty-worthy foul, on VAR review it would be overturned).
     
  11. hatterson

    hatterson Registered User

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    Yes they would look at it, but it’s not an automatic handball simply because it hit his hand. That only applies to goals or obvious goal scoring opportunities, it doesn’t apply to future fouls by the opposite team.

    The standard for the Silva handball isn’t “did it hit his hand” it’s the same standard used for the TAA handball claim later in the game.
     
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  12. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    Standard is for attacking players and they discussed this on the post game. If you are attacking and gain an advantage by a handball it doesn't have to be deliberate. That's it; period. Also creating a penalty by hitting a ball with your hand into another player's arm would certainly qualify as an obvious goal scoring opportunity, but it basically applies to any attacking handball in the box. Defenders are given the benefit of the doubt and attackers are not.
     
  13. bluesfan94

    bluesfan94 #PetroforNorris

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    Again, if you do not allow the playing of the ball by an opponent to end the attack for the purposes of a handball, then there is no end to an attack.
     
  14. hatterson

    hatterson Registered User

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    That's not what the new rules say though.

    It didn't go in the goal, so the first doesn't apply.
    No City player gained control of the ball, so the second part doesn't apply.

    The penalty was created because TAA put his hand out from his body and blocked the ball. If anything, once it's coming towards him he actually moves his hand towards the ball instead of away from it.

    Both the first and second bit apply to Silva here. His arm isn't in an unnatural position and the ball is hit directly into his hand from a player who is close/near. The deflection off Silva isn't close/near to TAA and the ball isn't moving excessively fast for him to be unable to move his arm.

    By your logic, as soon as the ball hits Silva's arm, TAA could have literally reached out and grabbed the ball with both hands like he was an NFL receiver and not had anything happen.
     
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  15. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    Gaining a penalty is effectively a goal scoring situation or control of the ball as the direct result of the ball coming off the arm of the attacker. Like I said, the refs and panel already discussed this and said it would have been called back as a Liverpool free kick if they had decided that TAA did commit a foul worthy offence when the ball hit his arm.
     
  16. hatterson

    hatterson Registered User

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    No, it fundamentally isn’t.

    For the same reason that if a player is in an offside position you can’t intercept a cross to him by reaching out and grabbing the ball and then claim offside.

    It’s telling that the defense from the PGMOL for the TAA situation mentions nothing about Silva but simply says it doesn’t meet the standards for a deliberate handball (which is a joke). If the ball hitting Silva’s hand negated any potential penalty, regardless of how intentional TAA’s actions were, they would have said that because it would have been a much more convincing defense and allowed them to hide behind the new rule.

    “If I didn’t break the rules, the other team would have, so mine doesn’t count” is never a defense of an action under the rules.
     
  17. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    It fundamentally is and was already confirmed multiple times by officials and pundits that had discussed with officials so I don’t know what to tell you. You might not agree with it but that’s the reality of the rules at the moment.

    As far as the offside goes yes they do cancel fouls (or rather not punish for them) after offside calls plenty.
     
  18. hatterson

    hatterson Registered User

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    Offside wouldn’t do anything if the player hasn’t played the ball yet, which is this similar situation.

    A ball accidentally hitting an attackers hand is only a foul if either a.) it goes into the net or; b.) an attacker controls the ball and scores/generates a goal scoring opportunity. Arguero did not gain control, Sterling did not gain control. And a potential offense by the other team doesn’t negate an offense by you.

    The rules say nothing about gaining an advantage or negating a foul by the defense.

    Pretend this is the situation: The ball goes past TAA, and TAA doesn’t handle it. Just as Sterling it about to slot it in (before he touches it), someone rugby tackles him from behind. That player is 100% getting a red and its a pen regardless of if it hit Silva’s arm or not.

    The comparable to offside that I made was the following situation.

    Attacker sends a cross in towards a player is in an offside position. That player is making a back post run to head the ball in. A defender sees the run and before the ball gets to the back post he jumps up like an NFL receiver and grabs the ball out of the air. In that situation, the potential offside does not negate the handball offense. The attacking team has not committed an offside offense yet.

    The same applies here. City had not yet committed a handball offense because the ball neither went in the net nor did a City player gain control of it. It would have been an offense if the ball went to Sterling, but TAA handled it before it got there.

    There’s a reason why the PGMOL made zero mention of Silva, because a *potential* offense by one team does not negate an actual offense by the other team.

    All of the commentary I’ve seen supports that, and the only former referee I’ve seen argue the same as you is Bobby Madley. There clearly is plenty out there I haven’t seen, but I’ve tried googling a lot and I haven’t found hardly anything outside of Twitter.

    The real reason it wasn’t given seems obvious. Oliver was in a decent enough position that they were able to claim he had a good view, play continued for a while, and Liverpool scored. VAR didn’t want to be the reason for a significant shift in the title race like that. The controversy around not giving a handball is far less than it would be around erasing a goal and giving a penalty the other way.
     
  19. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

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    First of all I'm not even a little bit surprised this happened.

    Second of all Sterling is lucky that they did.
     
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  20. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

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    Sterling has also been dropped from the game because he confronted Gomez and was mad over losing.
     
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  21. Savant

    Savant Registered User

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    Any excuse to have a little Cam’ron in my life.
     

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  22. Live in the Now

    Live in the Now Registered User

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    Raheem Sterling dropped for Montenegro match after confronting Liverpool's Joe Gomez on England duty

    Haha.
     
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  23. hatterson

    hatterson Registered User

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    Lol, nothing like trash talking a sub after you lose the game.
     
  24. Savant

    Savant Registered User

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  25. YNWA14

    YNWA14 Onbreekbaar

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    This aged well.

    [​IMG]
     
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