Russia banned from international competitions, including Olympics, for 4 years over bad drug testing

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by LadyStanley, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. Dr Pepper

    Dr Pepper Registered User

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    Guess it's "guilty until proven innocent" for you, then?

    For most people it's the other way around. :dunno:
     
  2. Jussi

    Jussi Registered User

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    When it comes to doping cases it applies.
     
  3. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    We’re talking about an organized government-run doping operation here. The fact that a particular athlete evaded testing positive is hardly enough to inspire confidence that they’re clean.
     
  4. Dr Pepper

    Dr Pepper Registered User

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    I'd much rather the IOC/WADA just ramp up their testing and deal with cheaters once they're caught.

    Pre-emptively banning an entire country for four years just seems heavy-handed to me.

    Also, again, just because an athlete is clean doesn't mean they "evaded testing positive". If you take the mindset that every single Russian athlete is a cheater who just hasn't been caught yet, you're doing yourself a disservice while also making the path to success much harder for the many clean Russian athletes out there who just want to compete.
     
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  5. MNNumbers

    MNNumbers Registered User

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    The problem with the situation is like this, though:

    In the US, every athlete is more or less independent. There are training groups, which are market-force entities. There is no real USATF or US (governing body) intervention in Olympic sport in the US. The exception to this would be gymnastics, perhaps. But even in that situation, there are gymnastics academies which function along side the US governing body oversight. In a situation like this one, in the US, there is lots of room for athletes to choose their own doping regimen. Whether it's full-out push the limits (in my opinion, working with Salazar), push the limits independently, or just make judicial use or TUEs, or even, no doping at all. Athlete recruitment is such in the US that the state itself is not involved at all.

    Now, contrast that with Russia. The Russian government is involved in every step of the process. Russian sport governing bodies have a TREMENDOUS amount of control over who even gets to try which sports. I would imagine that Russian sport governing bodies also dictate training. And, it seems clear that RUSADA is connected to the Kremlin as well. In a system like that, the reasonable conclusion is that athletes have no choice but to do as they are told. There is much less room for athletes to make their own choices. So, when the state attempts a many-years-long coverup of the doping of its athletes, the supposition is that the state itself has been sponsoring the doping. THAT'S THE SADDEST PART. Given the way sport works in Russia, there is no way for any athlete to appear 'clean'. The only evidence they have is drug tests, and RUSADA has made all of those useless. So, every Russian athlete will be under suspicion if they compete, no matter what. And, there is no way to change that, unless RUSADA and the Kremlin give up on the idea of using sport as a proof to the Russian people of how great Russia is. It's a sad, sad situation.
     
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  6. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    That argument would be a lot easier to swallow if those athletes didn't have to go through an official government doping regimen as part of their standing with the Russian Olympic program.

    It's incredibly naive to treat this as though Russian athletes just wandered into the Olympic Village and took part in competitions without any organization behind them running the show.
     
  7. Dr Pepper

    Dr Pepper Registered User

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    So, like I said, what's stopping WADA/IOC from letting them compete and then nailing them afterwards with a stringent doping test, as per usual? In the end the Russian athletes get to compete at the Olympics, and if they're proven to have cheated, the usual process applies.

    I don't want to go through another two Olympics featuring "IOC Athletes from Russia" or whatever they were called, like we were all supposed to pretend Russia doesn't exist for the duration of the Games.

    Seems equally naive to blindly assume every single one of them is juicing.. :dunno:
     
  8. MNNumbers

    MNNumbers Registered User

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    What's stopping them from letting them compete and then nailing them is that WADA isn't funded well enough to implement such a stringent testing program, and that's the reason the national ADAs are supposed to do it.

    Furthermore, out-of-competition testing is very important because in sports like Track and Field, the training time is more important than the performing time. So, for WADA/IOC to only test the athletes at the competition means that those athletes have complete permission to dope all through their training. And, that doesn't make fair competition. The difficulty with anti-doping is that "positive tests" only are a very WEAK way of catching cheaters.

    And, the athletes and the fans who follow closely know that, so just testing them at the Olympics won't change the opinions of others - they will still be assumed to have doped in their training cycle.

    As I said, the problem here is that the RUSADA has created a situation in which Russian athletes who want to be clean and compete clean are the victims, because they have no real way of doing so which leaves them out of suspicion. That's why some say the problem is internal Russian politics.
     
  9. Dr Pepper

    Dr Pepper Registered User

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    Seems to be the case, but I still don't think the proper solution is a pre-emptive blanket ban on every Russian athlete.

    Guess that's the easiest way to go about this, though.
     
  10. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    No, it's not naive to assume that at all. These athletes came up through a state-sponsored system in which doping was part of the training regimen.

    Saying this or that person "may have" avoided the official Russian doping program is like saying an Team USA hockey player "may have" avoided being part of the Team USA training program... we just can't know for sure unless we see proof! No, we absolutely can know for sure because he wouldn't be on Team USA in the first place if he hadn't gone through the official training program that's demanded of everyone in the system.

    I do agree with you on this part, though:

    The current "solution" is just ridiculous and makes a mockery of the whole situation. "IOC athletes from Russia" are a completely made-up category of person, and nobody can take that seriously. Either ban them from competition or don't.
     
  11. Hanji

    Hanji Registered User

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    That poster isn't wrong. It’s always politics, in the big picture. Doping is just one part of it.

    Why is Russia banned as an entity while not a single international sanction is placed on the US when it comes to light that one of our governing bodies for years ignored and enabled heinous crimes 100 times worse than doping? I mean cmon now.
     
  12. Jussi

    Jussi Registered User

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    Because it's not government involvement and WADA doesn't deal with sexual abuse. Who's going to sanction the US for that? And it's not like the guilty aren't being punished for those acts.
     
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  13. gstommylee

    gstommylee Registered User

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    That and you would also have to sanction the entire world on top of it.
     
  14. sandysan

    sandysan Registered User

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    which of the athletes funded black ma/ms labs with the ability to adulterate vials and pass then through a hole in the wall ? was it the hockey players ? the gymnasts ?

    What you are arguing is that there could be " good stand up guys" in organized crime.

    they are part of a national program that decided that they were exempt from the rules that everyone else has to follow. They denied and denied and denied, then when they didnt comply with WADA they KNEW they were not compliant and now the narrative is " its an anti-russian bias " and " its a western plot"

    The scope of the level of doping leaves very little doubt that it was sanctioned. If you are competing against a country who HAS doped, denied that they have, ignored or destroyed the very things they would need to do as pennance, even if you are clean as the driven snow, you don't get the benefit of the doubt.

    Despite the presense of black labs, who has been held to account for this ?

    of that's right no one. I can hate the player and I can hate the game.
     
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  15. Hanji

    Hanji Registered User

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    Who would sanction us? The IOC could. Instead they choose to ban Russia for actions not nearly as abhorrent.
    Read my post again. The implementation of WADA's recommendations is a small part of the larger issue of pro-western politics influencing sport. This shouldn't be rocket science to anybody. Heck S. Africa was banned for decades by the IOC for political reasons unrelated to sport. Meanwhile we get off scot-free after molesting children for years.
    You can't be this obtuse.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  16. MNNumbers

    MNNumbers Registered User

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    Hanji,

    I believe you are right. IOC should sanction USA Gymnastics. Absolutely. 2 year ban on US participation in international competition. Very good idea. {That is, if you get the members of the IOC board to agree. Some of them come from countries with poor cultural backgrounds concerning women....)

    That doesn't change the present situation in Russia. It's not "pro-western politics". The information is all available. Russia as a nation - its government, it's athletics body, its anti-doping agency ALL decided to dope the athletes, and then go to every length possible to hide the fact they were doing it - falsified tests, samples being altered after being taken, records in the lab changed and destroyed. COMPLETELY DISHONEST. And negates the possibility of fair sport.

    Track and field has big issues right now anyway, keeping interest. When there is every likelihood that every great performance is drug-aided, there is less and less interest in watching. World Athletics (previously IAAF) needs to move on this, because if they don't, there will be less and less reason for them to have their positions. The sport will die.
     
  17. Jussi

    Jussi Registered User

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    Irony. Were those gymnast molested/abused BY THE GOVERNMENT OR THEIR ORDERS?

    It's you who can't see the past your own political bias. I mean for **** sakes, several Russian athletes and their own head of RUSADA admit guilt. Why the **** are you engaging in blatant whataboutism?
     
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  18. Hanji

    Hanji Registered User

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    Nobody with an ounce of integrity is advocating for Russia not to be punished. Red herring.
    But Russia’s shenanigans shouldn’t blind us to the fact that the US is conveniently being let off the hook for our B.S. Who gives a **** if our government wasn’t directly involved, our official national governing body looked the other way while hundred of girls were molested for 2 decades. Lives ruined. Gruesome and unspeakable occurrences.
    I have a bridge to sell you if you think this isn't rooted in politics, particularly considering the IOC has shown itself to be subject to political bias by banning S Africa for 3 decades for something that had nothing to do with sports.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  19. Jussi

    Jussi Registered User

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    It's a civil matter, not sports.

    Apartheid ( BY THE GOVERNMENT!) >>>>>>Gymnasts molestation.
     
  20. SupremeNachos

    SupremeNachos Registered User

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    I guess Russia is showing how stupid they are at getting caught repeatedly then.
     
  21. viper0220

    viper0220 Registered User

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    It is not all the Russian athletes that do, it is some and the whole country should not suffer because of it.

    Not to go into politics too much(PM me if you want to get into politics) if Russia was a "gas station" like the western countries wanted, than this would never happen.

    If you are going to ban the whole country, tell the names of the athletes that do it. No complaints were made to the National Olympic committee, why did this happen? If no complaints are made to the National Olympic Committee, than a country can according to the Olympic Charter compete on the Olympics under their own name and own national flag.
     
  22. SupremeNachos

    SupremeNachos Registered User

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    But that's what happens when the leaders of a group refuse to change after multiple infractions. It is a lot easier to do a blanket ban than create a group who combs through every single person to see if they are legit or not. It's not fair, but that's how things work.
     
  23. sandysan

    sandysan Registered User

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    its not russia that is stupid, its the rubes who buy into the " nothing has been proven and if it has its a western plot" that gives them cover. that's the problem
     
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  24. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

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    It took me seeing this post again in a quote to realize that you called this a "pre-emptive ban" :laugh:

    Words have meanings. Nothing about this ban is pre-emptive, it's a direct response to YEARS of government-sponsored, highly organized doping that was then subject to a government-sponsored highly organized coverup. "Pre-emptive" :laugh:
     
  25. MNNumbers

    MNNumbers Registered User

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    viper....

    As I understand, this is the situation:
    The Russian National ADA (Anti-Doping Agency) has been found to have falsified samples, opened sealed samples after taking them, changed data, and in some cases, destroyed information which would have shown all this to be true. (It was found out anyway).

    I am sure many would like to say: It's the athletes who are doped who will be eliminated from competition. However, there is no way to know who those athletes really are, because the RUSADA has so compromised the data and their OOC testing system as to render it useless.

    So, what are you supposed to do? WADA and IAAF, for example, have been talking to RUSADA for 4 years about doing a better job, and RUSADA has not changed its ways. Further talking to them isn't going to change their behavior.

    It just seems so clear that the Russian government, in conjunction with RUSADA, has decided to cheat the system and dope the athletes, in order to create winners, in order to prove how great "Mother Russia" is.

    In this situation, as much as I hate it for the athletes, I can understand WADA saying, "There is nothing to do except ban the whole country."

    Thoughts?
     

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